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 Post subject: Re: Melbourne Signals
PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:39 am 
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J class (light lines)
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:47 am
Posts: 97
Location: Prague, Czech Republic, Europe
I would like to ask one thing regarding automatic signals.

Is there any automatic(staggered) signal that can signal only medium speed for one or all routes? (Not talking about what I called "4asp", but... if there is some auto signal that can signal sequence: "stop" - "MS warning" - "clear MS".) Is there even an automatic signal that cannot signal normal speed aspects at all?

Thanks. VR

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V.R. - Just another railway safety geek; living for the dream of safe, fast and efficient railways...


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 Post subject: Re: Melbourne Signals
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:43 pm 
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H class (express goods/passenger)
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:20 am
Posts: 3330
Location: North Western suburbs of Melbourne, Victoria
G'day NSWGR AD60,
'
I see, 'VR', that no-one has responded to your inquiry here, yet. I'm not sure if that's because of "something lost in the translation" (with which I am having some difficulty) or just with some 'failure' to understand your meaning...

...firstly, I have to point out (and this is where the 'confusion' arises), that NO Automatic Signal (as used by the VR) will EVER signal .."...for one or all routes..".. This is the sole function of Home Signals (something, which, as a Signal Engineer, I would have thought would be naturally understood by your good self). During my 25 year tenure as a Driver and further 8 years thereafter as a Signaler, I cannot recall any location where an Automatic Signal was used to 'protect' points. Certainly there are one or two locations where points to sidings were (and probably still are) situated within the sections 'governed' by Automatic Signals but points so situated are 'controlled' by Electric Switch Locks, which can only be 'released' by the Train Controller - the Automatic Signal doesn't actually 'protect' the points - and the driver of a train may work the siding, as and when he wishes, whilst in the 'Section' (and if, for any reason, the Switch lock is not correctly reset, after use, the signal will fail to display proceed) ...

...effectively, your second question is asking if anyone is aware of any Automatic Signal that has it's 'A' light that is a "Marker Light", only. Certainly, there is none that would have the 'small style' light located in that position. If an Automatic signal did have an 'A' light that were fixed to display only a red aspect, then that light will always be a 'standard', 'full sized' light fitting, with an appropriate 'surround' and hood (otherwise indistinguishable from any other Three Position light). It is my observation that the 'small style' Marker Lights are only ever used as 'B' lights. Having said that and given my understanding of how these signals work within 'the system', I believe that the answer to your question must be an unequivocal, NO...

Jerker {:)}


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 Post subject: Re: Melbourne Signals
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:29 am 
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J class (light lines)
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:47 am
Posts: 97
Location: Prague, Czech Republic, Europe
G'day Jerker,

Thanks a lot!

I am quite worried... Of course that I did NOT mean it how you received that. It is - most probably - caused by the difference of our signalling systems and the lack of my deep insight to Victorian signalling and interlocking&signalling vocabulary. Of course - even children know that automatic signals never ever protect points. My question was rather about the braking distance and deceleration.

So what did I mean. Perhaps it doesn't exist in Victoria - but it does exist in Czech republic.
Imagine the home signal. And imagine the last automatic signal just in rear of this our home signal. The line speed is 100kph and the last automatic signal is some 300m from the home signal... 300m is far far enough to stop from 40kph and so aspect medium speed warning is displayed on it when the home signal is at stop and the section is clear. But 300m is really not enough to slow the train from 100kph to just 40kph. Now set some medium speed route. The home signal is at "medium speed warning" - but the last automatic cannot be at "reduce to medium speed" as it is too close to give appropriate distance to slow the train down.
In Czech republic we would signal medium speed already from the last automatic signal. And we would make it show "clear medium speed" as the next signal is not at stop.

(yep we do not have any automatic signal showing any medium speed at the moment - as all automatic signals are full braking distance apart - the last 4 aspect ABS in CZ was decommisioned this March - But we use the 4 aspect signalling inside station limits(partially))

So if I understand you well... This signalling pattern is not used in Victoria at all... And I thought that yes...

The second question was related to when the home signal in question above would only have medium speed routes from it. If the answer on the above question is NO, then this answere is of course also NO.

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V.R. - Just another railway safety geek; living for the dream of safe, fast and efficient railways...


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 Post subject: Re: Melbourne Signals
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:29 pm 
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H class (express goods/passenger)
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:20 am
Posts: 3330
Location: North Western suburbs of Melbourne, Victoria
G'day NSWGR AD60,

...my most humble apologies, 'VR', I did, indeed, misinterpret your questions...

...the method of signalling which you are describing is used in Victoria and although it isn't 'catered' for in any of the ABS rules (and has an 'official' title, which I cannot, at this moment, recall), is better known amongst (and generally disliked by) Drivers, as "Speed Signaling". There are several places where it is known to be used, not all of which I can recall but Werribee in both Up and Down directions is a certainty and the much discussed in these pages, Camberwell (on the Down). However, it should be noted, that in either of these cases (and I am sure in all the others), the Automatic Signals involved are ALL capable of operating "normally" - that is, they WILL display Clear Normal Speed where it is applicable (certainly, Werribee does), so the 'A" light is NOT fixed at Stop (as would be the case for a Marker Light)..

...again, I apologise for 'misleading' you - another "lost in the translation" moment, I guess...

Jerker {:)}


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 Post subject: Re: Melbourne Signals
PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:22 am 
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J class (light lines)
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:47 am
Posts: 97
Location: Prague, Czech Republic, Europe
Hi,
that's all okay. I poorly expressed myself.
I will add the possibility of the degrading the normal speed aspect to medium speed aspect later on.

I never thought the "A-light" would be of a marker-light design. As it would be primarily dangerous - drivers would possibly mistake medium speed aspect for normal speed aspect as the marker light is not designed to be seen from distance, but rather from a train stopped by it.

How it is by me in CZ:
In CZ we have this signalling also, but such signals are no longer automatic as AB4 (4 aspect bidirectional ABS) is no longer in use and only AB3 (3 aspect bidirectional ABS) or AH (Automatic line signalling without automatic signals but with repeater signals in advance of home (arrival/entry) signals. It may have one automatic signal (but with absolute meaning of the stop indication and with call-on light) with its own repeater signal.

The 4 aspect ABS is no longer used in CZ and so all automatic signals are on sufficient braking distance from the line speed to zero.

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V.R. - Just another railway safety geek; living for the dream of safe, fast and efficient railways...


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 Post subject: Re: Melbourne Signals
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:09 pm 
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J class (light lines)
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:47 am
Posts: 97
Location: Prague, Czech Republic, Europe
Gidday trainzers,

Unfortunately for you. Victorian signalling system is not a priority now. I further develop next generation of czech signalling pack which is much more complex than Victorian signalling. Then I will apply invented principles to VIC signals too...

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V.R. - Just another railway safety geek; living for the dream of safe, fast and efficient railways...


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 Post subject: Re: Melbourne Signals
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:05 pm 
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J class (light lines)
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:47 am
Posts: 97
Location: Prague, Czech Republic, Europe
Hello folks...

Seemingly nothing has changed in the situation of development of my Victorian signals since my last post. The script technology in my Czech signals project has, however, advanced quite a lot and it is now possible to script much more details easily - such as direction/gauge symbols etc. Changes will be incorporated to Victorian signals soon. Just stand by.


Thanks. Vojtech

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V.R. - Just another railway safety geek; living for the dream of safe, fast and efficient railways...


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 Post subject: Re: Melbourne Signals
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:05 pm 
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J class (light lines)
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Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:47 am
Posts: 97
Location: Prague, Czech Republic, Europe
Gidday. I am still not dead regarding this singalling project. Unfortunately, I had been quite oversaturated by signalling and interlocking matter and I did not have a "Trainz mood" recently at all. Now it seems better times are comming... Big project on resignalling 16km of track and (1 station, 24 level crossings, 2x ABS) is off and accepted and so I have more appetite on Trainz Signals.

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V.R. - Just another railway safety geek; living for the dream of safe, fast and efficient railways...


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 Post subject: Re: Melbourne Signals
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 11:55 pm 
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H class (express goods/passenger)
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Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:20 am
Posts: 3330
Location: North Western suburbs of Melbourne, Victoria
G'day NSWGR AD60,

...no worries, VR, we can only expect you to work on the project as and when you can. Keep us up to date and that's about all we need to know...

Jerker {:)}


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 Post subject: Re: Melbourne Signals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:44 pm 
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D4 class (shunter)
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Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:44 pm
Posts: 41
Location: SEYMOUR TRAIN
Hey mate,
Can you create a signal with the Route Indicators. Can we also set the letters for the indicators to what we want. I can't find pics though


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